I have been trying to reconcile the Catholic and Orthodoxy views of praying to saints and angels with the written word of God. It appears that the belief hinges on their belief that when a person dies who is a God fearing believer, then he/she is not dead, but rather alive, and therefor they are not communicating with anyone who is dead, but rather someone who is alive. Of course this also assumes the state of their soul at the time of their death. The bible does say that not everyone who crys Lord Lord, will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So there are those of us past present and future, who are not truly saved, despite outward appearances.
Those who believe in praying to angels or asking saints to pray for them, are using the scriptures to prove that their departure from Gods other statements to the contrary, are actually supported instead of condemned. It would be the same as trying to say that when the new testament mentions that at the time of the death of our Lord and Savior, the dead that walked around the town, were in fact zombies.
It is sad when people twist the words of God into saying what it clearly does not. They intentionally dismiss the verses that forbid them to do that which is detestable to God, and claim that it is the fault of those who have translated the Bible from The original language, into one more understood by those alive today.
Now, I know that there are errors in many of the poorly re translated versions of the Bible, However, these translations are based on the original texts, and are not being rewritten to say what the translator wants the Bible to say, with the exception of a very few churches out there, but are in fact being carefully screened and cross checked to ensure full compliance with the original word of God. As humans, we make mistakes, sometimes even when trying to serve God.
God tells us over and over not to worship idols, graven images, etc. yet the Catholic church says this:
The images of Christ and of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the saints are to be had and retained particularly in churches, and due honor and veneration are to be given them; not that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them on account of which they are to be worshipped, or that anything is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be reposed in images, as was of old by the Gentiles, who placed their hopes in idols; but because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which these images represent; so that we through the images which we kiss...or bend the knee, adore Christ and venerate the saints, whom they represent. [The Canons & Decrees of the Council of Trent (TAN Books, 1978) p. 215-6]
It is interesting that the catholic church says one thing on one hand and another on the other. Firts we are to Venerate the saints and the virgin Mary, or that anything is to be asked of them. It claims that trust is not to be placed in the images. the fact is, that veneration denotes worship. Bowing down in scriptures also is used to show worship, no matter if it is to God or to false gods. If we are forbidden to bow down to false gods, then wouldn't that make the statue you are bowing down to God?
It is a fact that God told us to not make any graven images. It is a fact that we are not to worship any other god other than the God of heaven and earth. It is a fact that Jesus, God in the form of man, came to earth, lived and died, and rose again to save mankind from their sins in order that we can have a way to God that was not available to the old testament church.
What is not a fact is many of the non biblical practices that take place in many churches today. Why is it that man will willingly do the things they are not asked to do yet, seem reluctant to do those that we are. Is it just our sinful nature, or do we somehow feel that we know more than God does when it comes to worshiping our God and savior.
It is like we don't think that God, the creator of everything, is capable of telling us the proper way he desires to be worshiped. Or, that even though he inspired man with the words that he wanted put into his Holy Bible, but lost control when it came to man translating it into a language that man could understand, and read for himself.
Poor feeble God, so old, he just isn't in touch with his creation anymore, and he left the Catholics in charge. What a sad world when we are forced to listen to a bunch of idol worshiping sinners who believe that they have some unwritten handed down insight from God that no other religion in the world has.
(Mat 6:9 NIV) This, then, is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
(Mat 11:25 NIV) At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
(Mat 11:26 NIV) Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
(Mat 11:27 NIV) All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
God tells us all throughout his word, who we are supposed to give our worship and prayers to. Then in the New Testament, Jesus tells us. So why is it we can't get that? Why do we think we mere humans have some Divine knowledge not handed down or entrusted even to Jesus?
How easy would it be for me to claim that God told me something that was so important that it could not be trusted to have been included in the written word of God but rather must be passed on from fallible man to fallible man for hundreds of years, and that unlike the written word of God, could not ever have been miss understood, or improperly passed on from one person to another.
It would be nice if this were being read in a large group right now. Lets say more than 20 men, women, and children. One person could whisper something into the ear of the person sitting next to him/her, something not too simple at all, but rather complex in nature using multiple commas and run on sentences, and something that is only said once. Do you think that it will remain unchanged by the time it gets to the last person? Now write something down, and pass the piece of paper to each person, and have them read it. Do you think that what is written will change by the time is is handed to the last person?
Joh 14:15 NIV) If you love me, you will obey what I command.
God had his word written down for a reason. He also carefully chose the people he revealed his words too. He chose the languages of these people, and knew thousands of years in advance what the languages of the world would be. To limit God in any way is to cheapen the Bible, the men and women who’s lives were used to carry Gods word and his desires forward through the years and the sacrifice of his son on the cross.
I guess that there are those in power who feel that they do not need to follow the written word of God, but must however make it up as they go along, keeping the people of God ignorant to what God has really said through his prophets, through his word, and through his Son, Jesus Christ.
(1Jn 4:1 NIV) Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
(1Jn 4:2 NIV) This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
(1Jn 4:3 NIV) but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
I want to start with the very first verse of the Bible. A verse that I believe speaks volumes.
Gen. 1: 1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
It doesn't say he found it already made, nor does it say that he bought it. He didn't borrow it, nor did he send out someone else to find a suitable planet with which he could start life on. It says in fact that God created everything. The planets, the stars, the moons, the suns, asteroids, comets, everything. It gives God the credit for being the supreme being, master of all the universe, founder of the world.
Does that in any way sound like a God who has limitations? Does it sound like a God who is not in control? Does it sound like he is a little “g” god who has to share his Godhood with man because his plans to send his son to die for us on the cross and to be our way to salvation wasn't enough, and he needed mans held because he is not capable of hearing our prayers unless they are repeated by dead decaying corpses who did not even have the power to resurrect themselves from the grave yet supposedly did things in life that gave them superhuman powers so as to make them more valuable in death than they were in life.
Does it matter that God never said anything about elevating man to this sudo godly statues? Does it matter that God left detailed instructions as to what he would and would not allow in worship to Him? Even the Angels in Heaven say do not worship them.
(Rev 19:9 NIV) Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."
(Rev 19:10 NIV) At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Ok, if you read on, by the time we get to the 3rd chapter of the old testament, we see the next important thing that I wish to point out. Man is not God, nor is he able to perform on the same level as God. You see, mankind was tricked. He was told something that wasn't true, and he believed it. It is like passing a verbal message from person to person over a large group and expecting the words not to be different than they started out. Man failed to keep and follow the oral, words told and not written down, words of God. If we couldn't be trusted with something as simple as following a diet, how can we possibly believe that there are those to whom God entrusted oral words of detailed instruction as to the worship of our lord and savior?
Can you see the pattern? Maybe we need to go in a little deeper. You see, the catholic church is made up of a bunch of priests right? I guess they are somehow Jewish and they had their laviticle priesthood handed down to them through some odd Jewish/gentile priesthood co-op act that just happened to have been left out of the Bible also.
Well, lets move a few years forward to the time of Samuel. Starting in 1 Samuel 1: 12 we have a story of a young lady named Hannah who wanted a son. She prayed to God with such a great passion, without speaking aloud, and the “Priest” thought she was drunk. This was a man dedicated to God, who had the “ear” or God, was Gods mouthpiece, and was responsible for all things related to the worship and sacrifices to God, yet he couldn't even discern the difference between a drunk woman, and a woman poring out her heart to her Lord and God.
Now I know that in the case of the old testament priests, God chose those who would be included in the priesthood, but for those who fill that position now, and who believe that they still have the same level of priestly duties as those of the old testament, God did not choose you, and in fact did away with the practice of the priesthood, but that is to be discussed later on.
Later in the life of this priest, we learn that he couldn't even be bothered with what God had to share with him through someone to whom he told to listen to Gods voice and obey his words. In the 3rd chapter, Samuel listened to God, and told the priest what God had to say. The priest could only say Oh well, God will do what he wants. He could have gotten on his knees to pray and turn from his sin, He could have gotten his sons to do the same, but he just didn't care and God ended their lives just as he said he would.
So we can see very easily just how reluctant, or how casually mankind treats what God has to say directly to them yet, we are still being asked to believe that the catholic church is somehow different. I mean these are the same people who killed people for not believing in just the same way they did. These are the same people who elevate themselves to a position that demands respect, rather than earning it by following the Lord with all their heart and soul, and daily leaning upon the God of heaven for support in all he does.
You see, I myself have been a Christian most of my life. I have loved my Lord dearly for all of this time , and yet only recently felt the hand of God directing me to follow him and take on the role of leadership that he has desired for me to take on. Yet, even knowing that I am now doing my best to do that which my Lord feels I am capably of doing, I believe that respect needs to be earned.
I do not yet feel that I am ready, yet the words that God wants for me to write, I write. Where the subject goes, I follow. And I know that when I follow, God will lead. I am not the author, but rather the one through which God speaks and leads me to write what he desires.
I myself would not have made the connection of man not being capable of following the verbal words of God and yet knowing that we are expected to believe that we should, simply because the catholic church says we should. I also must say this, I know that for much of the biblical events, they were given to the men and women in a verbal rather than written form, yet there is one very huge difference between us and them. Most of the times when God gave them instructions, it was an audible voice, or an angel who appeared to them directly.
I also must say that I myself have felt the hand of the Holy Spirit directing me in some important message, but in all cases, I wrote it down as it came to me, and all of it could be proved true through the written word of God, or tested through the scriptures to see if the are indeed from God. In fact, I would not even dare to pass it along if it weren’t. Even when I had a dream concerning the worship practices of my old church, I was reluctant to pass it along to the pastor until I had been given the chance to verify the message of the dream through the written word of God.
The same was the case when God gave me the interpretation of a dream that one of my Sunday school teachers had shared with me. To me it is very important to know that anything that I share with anyone about God, is scriptural. 2 timothy 3:16 tells us that all scripture is breathed by God. 2 Peter 1:21 tells us that the prophets did not do what they did by there own will, but rather the will of God and the Holy spirit.
I have tried to write a message without God as the author and it met with complete disaster. I had trouble just spelling my own name let alone knowing what to write or even if what I wrote was in the Bible or not. For me, my deepest fear is misleading those to whom God has chosen me to minister to. I do not want to be labeled a false prophet or false teacher. Would that others felt the same.
I don't know why others in this world cannot see just how simple the message of God is, and how he has laid out everything for us in advanced. So why is it that we try so hard to change it all and mess it up. Why can't we let God be God, and we be his servants.
Now I know that my main topic was about the so called saints of the catholic religion but, I also said that I am led by God, and write what he tells me to write, so I am right on track with whatever it is that God wishes to share with not only me, but you as well.
I have looked at the many forbidden practices mentioned in the Old testament. Of the ones mentioned I can see one that to me looks a lot like what the Catholics are doing with regards to “saints”, and that would be necromancy.
In short, necromancy is the communication with the dead. Again however, we must then define what is the meaning of being alive and being dead. Now, I don't want, unless I am forced to do so, to become overly technical about the two terms. To me it seams a simple answer. When you, as a man, woman, or child are breathing, walking, eating, or doing just about anything in the flesh, you are alive. I would say that is a person is able to speak to you face to face, and they have breath in their body, they are alive. If they do not have breath in their body, and are in fact buried in the ground, then they are dead.
So, alive, walking and breathing, dead, decaying and not breathing. This will be my simple premiss upon which I will endeavor to state my case. Having set up what some will say is a rather narrow definition upon which to base this discussion, it will be God who will provide the verses to ether support or disprove what I feel is true and in keeping with Gods word.
I am going to go to the old testament to start looking for answers. 1 Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was dead. ( notice that is doesn't say sleeping, or alive in heaven, but dead) and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in his own town of Ramah. ( not only was he dead, but he was buried as well.) Saul had expelled the mediums and spiritualist from the land.
So here is something that is important. It even helps to make a statement against what the Catholics claim about saints. Samuel, who was by all accounts a man of God, a man who was more likely than not, heaven bound after his death, was dead and buried. His life had ceased.
In this story Saul had been trying to get answers from God, and God wasn't talking to him, so he went to those that God said not to go to, and looked for help from them. He went to the witch of Endor. Yes, I said Endor, not to be confused with Star wars. Saul asked her to conjure or bring up from the dead, Samuel the prophet. The woman did it, and what did Saul do? He bowed down as in worship to the dead. ( how many times do Catholics the world around do this) in verse 16 we see Samuel asking Saul why he was consulting him. Not only was Saul doing wrong, by going to the woman in the first place to call up Samuel, but Even Samuel the dead man of God knew that it was wrong.
You would think that if God said it was wrong, and the witch knew she was doing something forbidden by God, and the dead man said it was wrong, you would think that the Catholics would know that it is wrong also, but they seam to have fooled themselves into believing that it is somehow ok.
Contrary to anything that the catholic church has told you, man will not become all knowing, all present, or any of the other things that would be required of them to hear you when you ask them to pray for you, with you, or to ask God for anything on your behalf.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you made me come up, troubling my rest?...
(Ecc 9:5 NIV) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.
(Ecc 9:6 NIV) Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.
What? do my eyes deceive me? is it possible that 1000's of years ago, God answered this question for us, and had it written down in his holy word just for this reason? There are no verses to indicate that the dead know what the living are doing. So, if they do not know what the living are doing, how can they intercede or pray on behalf of the living. and, since they now have their reward, why would they want to. they had to acquire their own salvation the same way you and I did. they worked in life, suffered, prayed and lived. Now they are in the arm of their savior. Their time has been done.
Aside from the minor fact that it is wrong, we have another problems with the whole “saint” worship. As if it wasn't bad enough, they have gone and made graven images of the “saints”. I know, I know. You claim that they are not being worshiped. You can claim that till Jesus returns but, you are only lying to those who know better.
As a teenager, I was given the rare opportunity to be a missionary to a part of Mexico that not too many white people ever got to visit. It was remote, was filled to the brim with all kinds of pagan practices, and was at one time the home of witch doctors and head hunters. And that was only stopped a few years before I got to be a part of the group.
What I saw as a young man will stick with me forever. I saw bunches of men and women bowing down in worship to a statue of the Virgin Mary. In Daniel 3, the king made a golden image of himself, and ordered all who were in his kingdom to bow down and worship the image. So, I have this image in mind when I saw hundreds of people doing the same to a statue of a woman. Not but 50 feet away was a cross with Jesus hanging on it, and no one ever bent a knee to it.
In the Bible you do not hear of anyone bowing down to an image, that was not connected to the false worship of idols. I also have not seen any passage that indicates praying to someone so that they can pray for you. That’s not to say that it is wrong to seek prayer support from others. The bible does tell us to bare one another burdens. James 5:16
What is does not say is that we are to set up an elaborate system of dead men and women, elevate them to a status equal to God, and instead of praying to Jesus, or the Ho;y Spirit, or even God himself, we are to pray to them since only they could possibly know anything that we are going through and therefore are infinitely more qualified than Jesus to know what we here on earth are going through.
After all, who can forget that infamous verse... 1 Stupidity 1:1 They are the way the truth and the path. You can't get to me but if you leave a few dollars, and say some vain repetitious prays, they might hear you and lead you down the path that won't get to me, But hey it doesn't matter anyway because after you are dead, the priest can save your soul and get you into heaven as long as you agree to allowing others to bother you in the afterlife with their prayers that you can't possibly hear anyways.
Sounds absurd doesn't it, but that is what they want you to believe. I think that the only reason that catholic priests have a bible is to hold down their contempt for God. It is interesting to see that the Catholic church is more interested in their claim to be started by Jesus Christ, and that Peter was their first Bishop, yet they can show no proof of their claims.
I also, without getting too caught up in details, find it hard to believe since the Catholics are not Jews, and until Jesus died and went to heaven Salvation did not seam to be open to anyone except Gods chosen. So why would Jesus start and ordain the worlds first all gentile church before he had informed the apostles through the Holy Spirit that salvation was available to all who now asked and desired it?
Reading the history of the early “church” looks like a conspiracy theorists nightmare. Counsels convened to decide if it was ok to do this or that, and decisions being made to allow Icons, another word for graven images, to be allowed or not allowed. Do they really believe that the world is so blind as to not see that simply changing what they call their sin does not make it any less of a sin? I guess this is why the average member of the catholic church was not allowed to read a bible on their own.
Wow, I just read more about sainthood in the Catholics eyes, and it's even more messed up than I thought. You can't become a saint until after you are dead, even though the new testament refers to living saints as being believers in Christ, not to dead people who are in the dirt. It seams that if you pray to the dead, asking them to help you, and for some reason something good and miraculous happens, then it happened because the dead person made it happen and so therefore that proves that they are in heaven and that they are on an equal footing with Jesus, and are capable of doing great things. Sounds like demon worship to me. Someone needs to seriously pray that their eyes are opened and that they see the truth.
I would hate to be one of the ones on judgment day that has to sit through the long list of offenses committed against Gods people for lying to them and leading them down a road of destruction and claiming to be doing it all in the name of God. Their entire religious beginnings are based on lies and things that they cannot prove happened, and since they have all that going for them I guess that spreading more falsehoods doesn't amount to much.
Sounds to me like someone spiked their punch. In looking at some of the things I have looked at tonight, I am becoming more and more convinced that the catholic church should be stricken from the records, and thrown into the pit. There is more evil being done in the name of God inside the Vatican than being practiced inside churches that are openly demonic.
In Romans 3: 10 we are told that there are none who are righteous. So what is it to be righteous? Free from guilt or sin. And a Holy person is one who is worthy of worship. If the bible says that none of us fit that description, how in the world can the Catholics claim otherwise?
Catholics claim that they pray with saints. How is it possible to pray with someone who is dead? Again necromancy is something that fits. Only through the practices of Satan can the things that the catholic church claims is godly can be done. Can I give you guys a clue about something so mind blowing and so awesome that you will hardly believe your eyes when you read it? Jesus is the only one that you can pray too who can offer up your words to God. And praying to him is not necromancy because Jesus isn't dead. No one other than Jesus, raised himself from the grave. No one other than Jesus was sent to earth by God the father, to intercede on our behalf. In fact there is even a verse for that. 1 Timothy 2:5 There is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ.
Asking someone to pray with you is ok. And as pointed out earlier is in keeping with the scriptures. It the part about asking the dead to pray with us or for us that I have problems with.
Leviticus 2:5
'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the LORD your God.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.
The Bible, Gods word, tells us that talking to the dead is wrong. And that the dead are dead. Once life is over here on earth, the dead have no more part to play in it. They may be in heaven with God, but they aren’t alive here on earth, and they aren’t going to be able to interact with or be of any help to the living. Is it so hard to understand that dead means dead?
Isaiah 8:19
When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? {Should they} {consult} the dead on behalf of the living?
Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? It sounds like this whole talking to the dead thing is not doing so well when it comes to what the bible has to to say about the subject. It is also turning out that even though I set the definition of dead and alive to such a simple, easy to understand statement, that God is in fact showing me the verses he desires me to read. You see, as I am writing this, God is leading me and showing me the answers as he opens his word to me and guilds me on my way. None of this has been per-researched, or studies for years before writing.
I have asked God to reveal to me the things he desires for me to write about, and I go where he leads. You might say that I am learning as you are learning. I also must say despite the appearance to the contrary, I am not anti-catholic. What I am against is doing things in worship to God that are not in the Bible, Misleading those with whom you are intrusted to teach with false doctrine, and twisting the word of God into something other than what it was meant to be.
There are things we are told, “do this”, and things we are told “do not do this”, anything in between or outside of this is us making assumptions as to what is being said. We are not to put ideas together that do not belong together, and infer that they mean something not said. That kind of thinking is just wrong. God did not direct us to the worship of or in any way tell us to elevate the status of fallen man to a level where they are in any way worthy of the level of attention that people give to those they believe are saints. Simply put, if God did not tell you to do it, them there is only one other source for the practice, and that is from the devil himself.
It is funny that some of the catholic web site claim they do not pray to saint, but rather with them. I say funny because I found an entire web site dedicated to prayers to pray to the saints. I read one and it looks as though it is in fact a prayer to, and not a prayer with the so called saint.
The bottom line is this. It does not matter what you call it., praying with or praying to. It is not a practice dictated in the bible by God. The fact that these so called saints are dead, and that you are communicating with them is in itself a form of necromancy or one of the other forbidden practices that God said do not do this. You may say that the saints are mediators between you and God, but the bible says differently when it declares that only Jesus mediates for us when we pray. You may say that images and icons of saints is not the same as idol worship, because we all have pictures of our loved ones in our homes and in our wallets or purses, and they are simply reminders of those who have gone on before us, but I have never bowed down before a picture or statue of my uncle or grandmother and asked them for anything. You may claim that God directed man to make images of angels and so therefor it is ok for you to then make images of dead “saint”. God told man to make no graven images. That was a command given man when man was acting on his own. Not when man was doing the will of God. The cherubim were a part of the mercy seat because it was a representation of the throne of God, and because God dwelt there. God does not dwell with the images of the dead. You must also know that doing what God directs you to do is so much different than going out on your own and making up the rules as you go.
In closing, it is sad to see the gross perversion of scripture, being carried out by the catholic church in the name of God. When we do things in the name of God, we must be careful to read the scriptures carefully and not take them out of context in order to say “see here? It was done here, so it must be ok for us to do now”. The Bible says that Jesus wept, so does that mean we should all go around crying all of the time? Learn to read all of what God says, and not just part of it. You may find that God has something important to say to you.
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